Interview: San Diego Glass Artist and Sign Painter Roderick Treece

Roderick and Sean talk signs, surfing, "Big Daddy" Ed Roth and Sean gets schooled on planning for the future.

Transcription:

Coming to you from Starr Studios in Denison, Texas, this is Coffee with a Signpainter, a weekly podcast hosted by sign painter, Sean Starr, that consists of interviews with other sign painters and some of the customers and characters Sean comes across while running his studio. Hey. Welcome back to Coffee with a Signpainter. Today, I have a very special guest, a special treat. We'll be speaking with, Roderick Treese.

He's a, an incredible gold leaf on glass artist, sign painter. He's got a long history in the trade. And on top of all of that, he's, as far as a, craftsman go, I've I've probably got, more respect for him, for his, craftsmanship and ability than just about anybody doing that type of work. Really a truly, gifted craftsman. And, we're gonna talk and dig into some of his, history, his dad's history, which is very interesting.

And, yeah. It's good. It's a good interview. So let's talk to Roderick Treese. Mexico for two weeks and Yeah.

I saw I saw the pictures. I coveted the pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it was good and nice to be home and, all that great stuff. So, yeah, just cruising. Cool. So what have you been up to? Are we doing this now or we are we, I I'm not even gonna tell you.

Okay. Good. Yeah. Because, I I just wanna chill out and and talk like we were talking on the phone. So Check check that out.

Yeah. That's a that's a James Thomas original, isn't it? It is. Yeah. That's pretty cool, Yeah.

Very cool. He he's a good kid. Yeah. Yeah. I like him a lot.

Yeah. So what have I been up to? So, you know, I'm kinda semi retired now, so I'm not I'm working part time Mhmm. And I've been getting into brilliant carving. Okay.

If you know you know what that is. Yeah. It's the Dave Smith on wheel thing? Yeah. Yeah.

So it's it's all stone stone and and, diamond wheels, cutting, all glass. Old equipment to do that, or did you modify new stuff? How'd you how'd you come across that? I, let's see if you can see it. That that thing, that thing right here, Okay.

Is the lathe. Can actually, Okay. Very cool. Better. Yeah.

The the listeners aren't gonna be able to see any of that, though. Hey, Ron. Rick. So that's the lane and my flip flop back on here. That's the lathe, and then these are the wheels.

That's a stone wheel. Okay. Like that. And then just the arbor. That's what fits on the that's what fits on the end of the machine.

Okay. Yeah. The list the listeners won't be able to see any of this, but No. No. No.

But, so so did you put that together? Is that like a combination of old stuff and new stuff, it looks like almost? Yeah. The the lathe I bought from a friend of mine up in Santa Cruz, his name is Rich Samsel. He's, one of the best, in my mind, he's one of the best brilliant carvers in the world.

Oh, wow. Okay. There's a there's three there's three or four people that I know that I know of. He's the guy I know personally besides Dave Smith. Okay.

And, I've been a friend of his for years and and I've been really admired all of his work. So, when I finally decided to get into it, I he had a lay he had this lay for sale, which I put off buying for years because I the problem with that craft is finding people that will appreciate it and will spend the money to to do it. So I didn't want to get into anything that didn't have something to do with make making money. Yeah. It's enormously time consuming, right?

Oh. Oh. It Imagine having to paint a sign like 10 times. Okay. It's it's so laborious, and it's so tedious, and it's and it's very nerve wracking, especially in the beginning stages, that it takes every bit of concentration that you have, and, it's very, it's very technical.

Okay. And so I had decided a long time ago, Rick Glosson actually had a a machine that when he passed away, I bought that machine on eBay for really very little money. Mhmm. And, it was an antique machine he had restored. And so I, bought that on eBay for $1,500 in the middle of the night, and went to bed and couldn't go to sleep because I didn't have the money.

I was broke at the time, didn't have anywhere to do it. Uh-huh. Put put the machine, and I also, didn't have any work to do. Nobody was nobody was paying me to do it. So I called his, brother back the next day and said, any money that I owed you for the the, for the, eBay, sale, I'll happy to pay you back for that.

And so I I that was years ago and I always regretted not getting it, so I finally made the decision this year to get into it, not worry about the money. Right. And, so I'm working on a couple new pieces Okay. That that that I did a few pieces that were just decorative on clear glass, and I'm working on two pieces right now that have signage, they have gold leaf, they have acid etching, they have brilliant carving, All the techniques that I know how to do, plus adding the brilliant carving to it. And, I've been working on those for a month or so now, maybe a month and a half.

And and so now that I'm back from vacation, I got them started again, and I should have them done in a, you know, another week or two. Okay. How many hours do you estimate, like, doing like what you just described for like a medium sized piece, how many hours do you think it takes start to finish? Well, the pieces I the the two pieces I have right now are, about 20 inches by 20 inches. They're the they're these two these two pieces, right?

Yeah. I think I saw I think you posted this on Instagram. Yeah. They're they're decorative tees of a design of a a font or a type style that I found in a really incredible old book that I got from my dad. And so it's a decorative tee with all the different cuts around it, and just the cutting alone, between the cutting and the polishing, that with the two pieces, so it's hard to know, you know, if you break it in half.

Right. But just the two pieces alone, with just the cutting, was probably about 60 hours. Wow. Yeah. It's just, if you look at what I guess the amazing thing about that learning process, and I'm so, you know, I'm still got so far to go, is if you look at the pieces by Rich Samsel, or Andreas Lehman, who is the other cutter, or Dave Smith, who we're all very familiar with, you just, it's mind boggling.

The amount of work and time that it took to do those is overwhelming. Just absolutely overwhelming. And so in my little infantile stage of learning how to do this, it you're just going I'm blown away at how much work it takes. Yeah. The and the designs that I've created are simple to be able to achieve those cuts that I've that I've done.

So so that's what I've been getting into lately. And doing some hand painted signage for local clients and Yeah. I noticed that too. You you had gone through quite a few years of of just concentrating on gold on glass. Right?

Well, I I think that I'm I'm not unlike I'm the same as I've always been. Whatever comes through the door, if I do. Uh-huh. Now what I try to do, you know, I'll I'll hand paint signs, I'll cut out, you know, MBO plywood and and paint that, I'll do all kinds of different things that I think what I've done now is decided to take things that I really wanna do. Yeah.

So perhaps I have a project that I don't really wanna do. It's not interesting to me. There's so many people I know, all over the world that can do anything, that if I don't want it, I can give it to somebody that that deserves it, that wants it, that can do a really great job. So those those people are always, always take care of those people. You know, they always get what they're looking for, which is an important part of in my mind, an important part of being in business is satisfying the customers whether I do the job or not.

Yeah. You know, you send them either I do it or I send them on their way, and know that I've given it to the right person, and they'll they'll handle it, and those people will be happy. So for me, I've narrowed it down to doing work on glass, using gold leaf, different techniques, but I'm not opposed to doing a, I'll go out and do a wall job, you know? I've got the big oval sign in here right now, it's, where's oh, I have sorry, I've got it laying outside, so I can't show it to you. It's a four by 10 MDO double sided, plywood sign.

Okay. You know? It's all hand painted with acrylics, and and it was really fun, you know? It got, I I got to put pull the brushes out, and had a great time, and so I'm not opposed to any of that stuff, It's just that, you know, that's my passion, is to do just glass. Yeah.

And, but you know, I I, I only get about 80 No, I only get about 10 or 20% of the jobs that I bid that are that are glassed through my website, because most of the people, they they aren't willing to pay. Or no idea what it cost probably. Right? Yeah. They, you know, and and, you know, I'm okay with that.

You know, I get I get, I have a stack on my desk in an envelope of hundreds of requests every year, for for people that want something that they have no idea what it's worth. Mhmm. To me, what it's worth. And, and I'm okay with that, because that's part of business. Not everyone knows what things are worth.

I appreciate that they like what I, that I, what they see on my website, or what what they know I do, but but they can't afford it. Yeah. And so I yeah. I have those contacts. I send those those those clients to people that, can do it for less money.

And I just have narrowed it down to, a certain amount that I wanna get per project. Mhmm. And, projects that I wanna do. And that works out it works out great for me. I make exactly the same amount of money as I've always made, or more, and I don't work.

I only work part time now. So Yeah. That that's kinda where I'm trying to get to, and I've I've been really fortunate in the last year, especially, where I can kinda just pick and choose what I wanna work on and then hand off the rest to, like, you know, Cole, who I trained down in Denton and that that kind of stuff is just, you know it gets nerve racking sometimes because, you know, you're like, well, I keep passing on this other stuff. Am I gonna pay the rent? But Right.

Right. I'd still rather spend my time pushing my, creative limits Mhmm. And, working on stuff that I really enjoy at this point and we're doing this kind of work than just taking in everything and being exhausted and paying more taxes and all that crap. Right. Right.

And I think that's a function of my my I have always believed that your ability to do what you want, and have all the time to do anything you want to do, is a function of overhead, and what it costs you to be alive every day. So if you can keep that down to as little as low as possible, then you have that. Then you have freedom. Yeah. And and to me, I I'm at the I'm in the position now where I don't have overhead.

Your studio's at home. Right? Yeah. My studio's at home. My property's paid off.

I have, a few income, rentals on the property. Mhmm. So I so I have if I don't make well, I you know, I don't have any new projects coming in right now, which means, I probably will not have any new jobs for at least a month. Mhmm. Which I can afford to do that, and it's only because over the years I've worked at it to try to get the overhead as low as possible.

And then I have the freedom to do if something comes in today, then I say, well, that's not really, the, what I need financially to make that work for me, or it's not creative enough. I can I can pass on it, and and it isn't gonna hurt me? Right. And it gives gives me a lot of freedom, and and then I can pursue, you know, the new, things that I'm trying to learn how to do with the confidence of not, like, worrying about, that I have to, you know, pay a mortgage or pay a rent, and that's, I think, to me, that's overwhelmingly, free to be able to do that. Now, I also, in the other, on the other end, I admire people that can have a big company and can build up these amazing things and have all these employees and and delegate, amazing projects to, you know, all their staff.

I admire those people. Yeah. I I respect it a lot. I'm just not capable of it. Yeah.

I don't have that kind of Yeah. I I don't see things that way, and I and I don't have that ability to keep things organized in that way. Right. Right. So yeah.

I I saw I did it for a while, years ago. I had a huge project for Knott's Berry Farm, and I ended up hiring about five people Mhmm. To help me do the job. What I ended up becoming was a facilitator, and I at the end of it or actually, during during it, I realized that isn't what I wanna do. And I and I and I said, you know what?

When this is done, I I I could take big jobs like that again, but I'm not gonna be a big company guy, because that's not I wanna be able to do the jobs myself, and one or two jobs at a time is what I that's what I like. And, that way you can pay attention to them, and you don't have to, you know, race around going crazy, and Yeah. And you end up not making, unless you're really good at big business, you don't end up making any more money. No. Same amount of money.

So, you know, it's it's all worked out great, I'm I'm happy with where I'm at. I've also got a I thought about, I was looking at a picture on my screen of a peacock, I've got a German guy that I've made friends with on Facebook, that was a friend of, Dave Smith's, and I have been working on this peacock design, like an old, it's gonna be an old ad for a glass sign for, I haven't come up with the name of the company yet, Peacock Whiskey or something, I don't know what. So this German guy is working on the design of the peacock, then Then we're gonna put it together with lettering and text and and, you know, like a, Art Nouveau background and Very cool. So hopefully and then that will also include, cutting and and carving and acid etching and all the different techniques. So hopefully later this year, next few months, I'll be putting that piece together, and that's kind of exciting.

Very cool. Yeah. So so tell everybody about your history. You've got kind of a a cool legacy with, what your dad did and all that. Your your dad at one point, for any Hot Rod fans out there, worked with Big Daddy Roth.

Right? Well, actually, it was the other way around. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So tell tell the story, because it's really interesting. Okay. So, that part of the story is that when big daddy was ever you know, anybody my age, a little older, and actually a lot of the new kids know who Big Daddy Ed Roth was, he was huge when I was young. He was, you know, the hot big hot rod, custom hot rod guy.

Him and George Barris were the two big names I knew of. Everybody that I knew built, big daddy models from through Ravel. He was a huge t shirt guy, so we already knew who he was, and then, when he got divorced, I think, if I remember the story correctly, he came to work, and he lived right down the street from Knott's Berry Farm. So when he came to work, got a job working at Knott's Berry Farm for my dad, and my dad and Ed did not really they grew I wasn't never quite sure what the deal was. They didn't really like each other, they just didn't see eye to eye.

So, my dad gave Ed his own little room Mhmm. Off off it was a it was like a little shed off the side of the the sign shop. Ed had his own little room. And your your dad managed the sign shop at Knott's Berry Farm, is that right? Yeah, he was the head of the sign shop at Knott's Berry Farm for about thirty five, forty years.

Okay. And so he, Ed had this little this little studio of his own, he'd do all of his own work there, and then when I, would come out, to hang out and, you know, take materials or use the facility or whatever I was gonna do, I would I made friends with Ed, and he was a really great guy, and I would sit in his little shop, and we'd hang out and talk, and and, you know, shoot the shoot the breeze, and and, get to know each other. And he was a great guy. I mean, at that point to be around a guy that was so humbled, you know, so famous, but so humbled, and he was so happy just to be hanging out and painting signs, and the guy was amazing, sign painting. Yeah.

Was he? I mean, oh yeah. No, he was, he was really good. I've never seen anybody that could eat a sandwich and let her sign at the same time. Mhmm.

I mean, he just was, he was a great craftsman, so that was really a pleasure to meet him. And, Now your your your your dad through Knott's Berry, if I okay, if I'm remembering this wrong, correct me, but, you and I drove out to that Calico ghost town Right. Years ago, and, we were looking at redoing a bunch of signage there, and your dad had done a signage there as well. Is that right? Yeah.

I had I had actually, I have a picture of him on a billboard on, I believe it's, I 15 or something, going out to Barstow. Mhmm. He's he's he's on that billboard, painting, the billboard for Knott's Berry Farm, Calico Ghost Town, restored by Knott's Berry Farm. And the date on the photo is like 1956, so it's a year before I was born. Mhmm.

And that's my connection to, Calico Ghost Town. Okay. And they had contacted me because the the, state wanted it them to tear that billboard down, so they needed they needed documented proof that that billboard had been up since certain times. So I gave them the photograph, And then that's when I made that connection and tried to get, the sign work out there Uh-huh. Which never materialized because they didn't have any they didn't wanna spend any money Yeah.

On on signage. Yeah. I think they they had said that the whole parks system in California at that point, there was like zero money for anything. Right. Right.

So and unless we wanted to have a giant letterhead meet out there and give them science for free, that, you know, nothing was gonna happen with that. So, I may I may wait till I'm 80 and I want and I want to hang out in my in my my beat up old motor home out in the desert and just paint stuff for free for them. I don't know. I'm I'm saving that one forever. Right.

For for the exit plan? Yeah. Yeah. The yeah. The retirement the retirement community when I can't surf anymore.

Because I love the desert. Yeah. But I but I I I don't I don't do anything for free, and I, and I don't spend, enough time out there to to schmooze them and get, get that gig. So Yeah. Yeah.

So do you do you do you surf on a regular basis? I look at it every I look at it every day. Where we live in Southern California, in San Diego to be exact, it's not great a lot, but it's just it's just okay. So you have to, as a surfer, and I think most people don't understand this, is as a surfer you have to, that's your focus every day, and you look at it every day, you kind of plan your whole life around, what the syrup, the tide, the wind, all those, elements are doing. And then you kinda then you kinda know what your day is.

So I don't really even start my day until in the shop till eleven. Like today, I knew yesterday, I checked, I checked with, my wife, and I checked the Internet, and I said, well, it's not gonna be very good in the morning, so I can make my appointment with Sean at eight, and we'll do our thing. And it's good surfing today? No. You know, it's terrible.

Okay. It's really yeah. It's really bad. If it was really good, I would have said, well Some other time, chump. Yeah.

Well, let me call you out. Let me call you later, when I get back in, or or, you know, again, I I will, typically tell people, you know, I start at eleven, that gives me all morning to figure that out. And, in a rare case that it might be good all day, then I just won't make, I just won't make any plans. And, there's actually a really good movie, surf movie, it's called Surfing for Life. Mhmm.

And I actually call it the geriatric surfing movie. It's about these stories of these five or six older surfers that are, in my in my world, they're famous. And it's about how they've been surfing their whole life, and they're older now, and how they have to deal with it. And the one guy's story was interesting because the wife's like, yeah, I can't tell you how many weddings we've missed, and family events, because the surf is good. And I that's that's the most important thing.

So that's been something I've done that, my whole life. My grandfather was a was the one of the one of the very surfers in California, and, one of the surfboard shapers in California. And so I learned from him, and it's just something I've always done. Have you have you seen that documentary Happy? No.

I haven't. That you should check that out. There's a there's a segment in there. They they travel around the world and and are interviewing people, who are known to be happy in their community. Oh, okay.

And there's a there's a guy in there. He's he's an older guy now, who's a surfing fanatic and, yeah. It's pretty cool. I mean, the guy's in amazing shape. I don't I don't remember how old he is, but he's probably like 70 or something.

But I mean, his body's like ripped. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they they're surfers are like anybody.

They can come in every shape and form and condition. There's some guys that are pretty amazing. There's some guys that are pretty pretty embarrassing to look at, but, you know, you just all I would I kinda liken it probably to fishing. You know? You just people Yeah.

People that Well, people that fish, just they just love it. You know? They don't care about Really, it's not about catching the fish. It's about being out there. Right.

And and being in nature, and and, you know, being by the water, and watching the water go by, and all that. It's like that, you know? Okay. And and so and then when you catch a fish, you know, it so much the better. So Yeah.

That that's that's kind of my, my take on motorcycling. You know? I don't really Right. Yeah. Give a hoot about who's got what motorcycle or whatever.

It's just about that experience of being out there, and Right. You can feel every shift in temperature going in high and low spots in the road, you can smell everything. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

And I remember that. I used to have a motorcycle, and I remember my my most amazing memory is being at a signal in the middle of the in the middle of the road, waiting to turn left. Mhmm. And looking looking it down at seeing all the stuff on the road that had been run over. And thinking, you know, you don't get that view.

There's no other way to get that view, other than my bicycle. So, yeah. There's a Yeah. So I could Motorcycle riding would be the same thing. Okay.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, but back to the Knott's Berry Farm thing, Yeah. Because we didn't quite finish that.

My dad had started there as, he got out of the military, the marines, and then had a GI bill, and went to school for art a little bit, and then got, my grandmother actually worked there, in the Silver Dollar Saloon, and she got him a job in steakhouse as a busboy. So he started as a busboy. Once there was an opening at the sign shop, he got a job in the sign shop, worked his way up to the head of the sign shop, and then, his manager that he worked for in the steak house wanted to change jobs, so, his name was Norm. Norm became my father's assistant in the sign shop. And so How many guys were working in there at any given time?

How big was it? It was really small. It was probably well, it was two when I started, going out there with my dad, it was two converted garages. Like like two car garages. Okay.

It's, you know, eight foot ceiling, nothing fancy at all. Okay. And there probably was, one, two, three, four, five, five guys. Okay. Never any women, by the way.

And, then they built a they tore all that down, they built, a new building that was probably 2,000 square feet, and about they had maybe five people. So the So their job then was, if obviously, if, like, a new attraction went in, they would make the signage. But the rest of the time was maintaining everything? Or No. No.

They they typically did not get to do the new signage. Really? They would hire yeah. Well, they did a they did a little bit of it, but for some reason, that was always farmed out to other other, contractors, and I ended up later on, I ended up being one of those contractors. And we had a little thing going where there was about there was like four of us that would share those jobs.

Uh-huh. And through my dad Like a cartel? We had a little yeah. A little not very farmed sign cartel thing going. And, we would he go, okay.

The the new ride's gonna open, and we need this and that. And so we're gonna have all four of you guys bid it, and then depending on who wasn't busy, they we would we would price that guy the lowest, and then they would they would get arrangement. It was it was, pretty cool for quite a long time. And, so we got to spend a lot of time at the farm. We got, and having my own side company, I got to use all the facilities, any of the materials that I wanted.

And my dad was notorious for bringing materials home, and tools home and things, so we had, you know, unlimited access to everything. So what were they doing? What were five people doing every day? Oh, well, they would they would be doing maintenance. They would be doing new menus.

They'd be doing show cards. They had a guy in one room, one side room that and he was this cool older guy, suit and tie. All he did was show cards, all day long. In a suit and tie. In a suit and tie, and he had you walk in, and this room had, red, plush carpet, and it was a little dark, and it had all the walls were covered with, Playboy centerfolds that had been taken out of the magazines and, matted in custom mats.

Right. That was my that was one of the impressions I got when I was a little kid of of, women. That that was probably somewhat damaging. Yeah. It took me a lot took me decades to figure out that, people aren't that perfect.

Yeah. So it was something to kinda kinda get over, but, yeah. So he was there for about thirty five, forty years, and then, they had a policy of basically firing people when, they wanted to get rid of you. They didn't there wasn't like a retirement program. You were just gone.

You're just and and the the joke was, the standing joke was, that you had all your stuff packed in in boxes. Whatever you wanted to take, you made sure it was all packed and ready to go for when that day happened. Oh, wow. Because they would just say, hey, k. Come on.

You're gone. So he, he was escorted off, and he probably spent four or five, six years just kind of, in a kind of a funk and depression, and then he got an old client that we used to do, restaurants with all over the country, approached him with a with a a project to do the all these hand painted signs for. It's called King's Fish House. And so they ramped back up, and and, he worked he was hand painting signs till the day he died. That just it was pretty impressive.

So and and I've I've gotten to repaint a lot of those signs that they've painted, and and, it's pretty cool. What's the situation now at Knott's Berry? What is are they just doing vinyl? Do they have paint guys there now? Or what's going on?

I think they have, three paint three people on staff that paint. Two or three. One of the people that I met, I've actually met, ran into a lady that is working at, not at in the sign shop, not very far now, at the sign painter movie up in, LA Trade Tech with Doc. And and she approached me and reminded me who she was, and so she works there, and it was funny because she said, she my dad told her when she would go apply for a job that she wouldn't he would never hire women. Really?

So now she's working there. So I think they have two or three people, and they do I'm sure they do hand painting, I'm sure a big part of it is vinyl. Mhmm. But but I don't know, I don't have access. I used to be able to just go and walk on the lot and go to the sign shop anytime I wanted, but I don't have access.

You gotta buy a ticket? Well, I can I can buy a ticket? I don't think I could get back to the sign shop. Oh, yeah. The maintenance stuff's probably separate, Yeah.

Without permission or or so, yeah. I don't I don't have any access to that anymore. So You you you mentioned the the sign painter movie. You came up to our studio when we were in Big Bear, and we were able to all participate in that. Between the the movie and the book, has that done anything good for you?

As far as your business goes, I mean, it's obviously a very cool thing to be a part of, but Yeah. Has that helped you in any way or hindered you in any way or created any frustration or Well, I gotta tell you thanks for that, because without you, that that wouldn't happen. So that's that's I always am in I'm indebted to you for that. I would say it hasn't it has not there hasn't been any there hasn't been any negative effect whatsoever toward it with that the book and the and the, the book and the, the movie, and you know, I've seen it like too many times now. I don't think I'll ever want to watch it again.

Uh-huh. And those guys did an amazing job on it. I just can't, you know, thank them enough. I think that it has made it possible for a bigger audience to appreciate signs Yeah. Signs and sign painting in general.

It, it it didn't you know, it was their movie, so I can't I I I I'm sympathetic to a lot of the negative critiques of the movie, being that it didn't really tell the story, very many stories of signed painters. Mhmm. But it was their movie, and and, they told the story that they they knew what they were they knew, they just followed the story, and they did a good job with the story they told. And I'm so happy with that. And I I think it was very much a a social commentary, you know, more than, the history of kind of thing.

And I think that's that's they I from talking to to Sam and Faith, I I don't think they really knew where the story would go, but but when they saw it develop, I think they they latched onto that. Right. Right. And and I think there's I think there's room for other other documentaries about sign painting. I mean, it it opens that up.

Yeah. And so and and anybody that, you know, wants to can do that. And I and I would, you know, I would, say go for it. And I I don't think there's anything there hasn't been anything bad about it. There has been, a lot more people, you know, getting a hold of me, saying, oh, I saw the book, and the book's at the this I was at the museum, and I saw this book, and you're in it, and and I get to tell all my friends, you know, that I know you.

And so it's been good. I haven't seen any, I don't think it's helped my business. Not all. No. Not really.

I don't I don't really think it's it's done that. It may have helped a few workshops. People contacted me for workshops, which, you know, is nice. I I don't do that on a very, I don't do it on a regular basis. That's one of my biggest regrets is when I was in Southern California that I didn't take you up on doing a workshop down there at your place.

Well, you're not yeah. We're still yeah. I'm still here. I'm not dead yet. Yeah.

Not dead. That's I need to get my butt out there and do it. Yeah. Well, come on, come on Tuesday or Wednesday. I have some I have some girl from back east coming down just to hang out, and and, she's a gilder.

Yeah. From back east, so we're gonna hang out. And John Arnott might invite John Arnott over and but, yeah. I don't think I think it's been a good thing, just for the movie, but it's been a strange adventure, because there's, like, I went to I was invited by somebody, can't remember who, to do the the the what's that? The Q and A at the end in, in, San Diego.

They they showed it. Okay. So I did a q I did a q and a down there, and that was really cool, and I'm not a great public speaker, so it was kind of fun. And then, through, Colt Bowden Mhmm. I was invited to a, sign painter art show, which is that's always kind of an oxymoron to me.

Why so? Well, I never considered art I never considered signage art. Yeah. I personally think they're two separate things. And so, he invited me to a art show, art sign art show in Santa Ana, so I went to the art show and was in that.

It was really it was it was fun. And, Is that the one at Marcus? Yeah. Yeah. I had a I had a small piece in that one too.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. It was nice. And so I did that show, I was with Pat Smith, Patrick Smith, who's a friend of mine, and we had a great time.

And then not long after that, I don't know, it's been about a month ago or so, I see that the sign painter movie is showing at this very prestigious museum in Orange County. Okay. It used to be called the Newport Harbor Museum, and I can't remember what it's called now. Orange County Museum of Art. Sign painter movie is showing there, and I'm thinking, oh well that's really cool, and then it says, oh, Patrick Smith is doing a demo.

And I'm going, well, that's a trip, you know, I didn't hear anything about it, and and so I called Patrick, and he said, yeah, I got invited, the guy, Marcus, gallery guy, invited me to asked me if I could do the demo, and I and I go, that's really cool. So then I emailed, and I can't remember that guy's name, the Marcus Gallery guy. Yeah. I don't remember either. Yeah.

I emailed him, and I said, hey, you know, I would I would be honored if I you want me to come up and, do a T and A, Q and A answer at the end, do a demo for you, whatever you want, and, got kind of blown off by it. And that to me, I was I was a little, insulted by that, because I felt like, you know, I'm one of the guys in the movie, it would be nice to have somebody in the movie there to support the movie, and I've also had, year '25, thirty years ago, I had an art show there, which I was, you know, real honored to be in that art show. Mhmm. So it would have been almost like coming back home. Right.

And to be back in the museum. And so, it it was disappointing, but, you know, at this point in life, you just disappointments, like, you just whatever, and, you know Yeah. You can't dwell on that stuff. It'll eat you. Yeah.

Yeah. It's no big deal. And and, so, but I think that overall, the movie and the book's been a great it's been great for side painting and and all the young kids that are excited about it and getting into it. So, you know, that's a it's a cool deal. Yeah.

Yeah. I I think it's it's done nothing but good. Yeah. You know, I I get some frustrations, but it's mostly, with social media. Mhmm.

Just because it's just a constant beast that Yeah. Requires constant feeding. Sure. And, I you know, the the movie has just been a Right. I I think it it it was a really good thing, for a lot of us that were in it.

I I think it kind of endorsed years of putting up with crap and struggling and and all of that too, you know? Kind of endorsement like, well, we weren't completely nuts. Right. Sure. Right.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because, you know, I mean, we we all took a bashing, you know, with the computer thing and took a lot of abuse because of it.

I don't feel I never I I don't feel that. No. I never did, No. I never did because, there were so many people. The the cool thing for me that I realized quickly, my dad had a computer, a a vinyl cutter at at knots.

I could have used it anytime I wanted. I never I never learned how to use it. There were so many people that got into it that you didn't need to spend any money on it. You could you could go over and go, hey, this is what I need, and they'd make it for you cheaper than you could possibly, paint it, or Yeah. And I remember my experience was I had a Marie Callender's restaurant chain, it was a big national chain at one time, and I used to do all the, they have, they make, you know, 30 different pies.

Mhmm. And they have menu boards, and all the menu boards had to have, you know, the names written on the on the strip with the price. And they were, at one time, I think, originally, they were screen printed on and then so I don't I can't remember how they, changed the prices. But when I got a hold of the account, we, started doing, vinyl came in and I would give this guy a type no, what was it? He had a the machine that would cut vinyl was a heat die cut machine.

Have you ever seen one before? I don't think so. Oh my God. It was amazing. So this guy in this guy in, Marin up in Northern California invented this this machine that was, it had it used, die cut plates, just like, you know, regular stamp the letters, basically?

You would yeah. It would heat up this die that had it had all the, like, a, b, c, d on it, and it would heat it up, and then you would roll the vinyl in it, and you'd press it down, and it would cut the vinyl through it, through this die cut process. Then you had to individually take each letter and pull it off of that. It was almost like kind of press type. Oh, kinda like, the Home Depot little peel off, put your address on your thing.

Yeah. So you'd have to take off these one inch letters and lay them all on a line, and then you would transfer those on to transfer paper, and then you would do it. So that was the experience. And he he would make up those little strips for me that I could apply onto the strips, and then he said, I'm getting into these new computers, these new things. It's going to be amazing, and I kind of freaked out and went, oh, well what are you going to do with the die cutter?

He goes, well I can sell it to you. So he sold me the machine with all the and they had these trays and trays of all the fonts, different styles that you had. Bought it all for about $750, and my girlfriend and I at the time had to lay out the couple menu boards ourselves, which was an amazingly tedious process. Like time setting for letterpress almost, Oh my god. It was so tedious.

And after about two or three of those, I called him up, I said, hey, how's your computer thing going? He goes, oh, it's going great. I go, here's my list, you do it. And I never I I gave I think I gave the the the vinyl, transfer machine, heat transfer machine away, and he kept doing all that stuff for me for less than I could do it, myself. And then the next, the next part of that project, we started doing reverse glass signs that were, dark green backgrounds with gold lettering, inlaid into it, and there were so many of them that I knew it had it couldn't all be done by hand.

So went over to this guy and I said, this is the project I have, and he goes, well we can cut those out in vinyl and you can use them as masks for your painting, and at the time, they only had a, Gerber only had a few, you know, I I never used a machine, so I don't know how many fonts they had, but let's imagine they had 10 in the machine. Well, Gallia, which is kind of an art deco font, they didn't have that, so this guy had to hand digitize the whole font for me. Then he could start producing all the lettering for me. So I would get these sheets of, this gallea lettering laid out like pies and hot apple pies and Marie Callender's and all the lettering, like about 12 inches tall on the sheets of, masked vinyl. And it was so cheap that there's no way you could do it Right.

By By hand. Yeah. Your hand and you would have to spend thousands of dollars on a machine. So I never I never had that that downside to, to, the vinyl industry like a lot of sign painters did. And granted, you did there were a lot of jobs you didn't get anymore, because vinyl, but a lot of jobs I didn't want anyway.

Like, I always considered lettering a sign on glass to be one of the most tedious things you could possibly do. Uh-huh. Because you you would you'd be inside, you'd get your pattern up, you'd start painting this thing, you'd get two or three coats of yellow on it, two or three coats of red, and invariably the owner would come up and go, Wow, that really looks kinda crappy on the inside. Uh-huh. And I'm going, You know, it looks great on the outside.

That's and and so you didn't have that with vinyl. And so some of those things I didn't, you didn't have to do anymore. Yeah, and I've always said it, that it's had its, it has its place, you know? It it definitely, it it has its place, it still has its place. I, you know, I think my my my gripe with the transition, was just how quickly sign painting got marginalized, at least where I was.

I mean, in in California, it seems like there's always been an appreciation for, you know, handcrafted work, from talking to most of you guys that have been out there a long time. But in other parts of the country, like, you know, at the time I was in Texas, it was immediate. It's as soon as the the vinyl systems came out, I mean, you you couldn't dig up paintwork, you know, if your life depended on it. It was almost overnight. It was just like, bam.

Right. That's old and crummy. We don't want that. That's, you know, that's unpredictable. We don't know what you might come up with.

We just want these Helvetica block letters. And it was just that shift was immediate. Right. Oh, no. I think I I agree.

I think the same thing happened, you know, everywhere. And it was it was I think the thing that a lot of people haven't talked about with that isn't is the fact that it was the that it was a business opportunity for anyone that wanted to work for themselves, that knew compute that had a feel for computers, and wanted to fabricate something. So mom and pop, anybody anybody in that context could have a business and be doing good. And that and and I can't blame those people for it. I, you know, it's not No.

I understand the appeal. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's no different than, the amazing story about why most of the donut shops in Southern California are owned by, Koreans, I think.

It's one guy that came and started it. Uh-huh. And then and then they can make a great living. So I understand that. The downside was is that it it opened it up to I think the biggest downside in my mind was that it opened it up to people that had no background in design and had no creativity.

Right. And so, that was the bigger problem. It wasn't Yeah. You had people with an accountant mentality Yeah. Starting to put together the visuals, and it's like Exactly.

Exactly. It just wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right fit, and and a lot of the people that wanted a sign, they didn't have that experience either. They always left that up to the sign painter to be to be the be the designer and show them what was gonna look good. And I gotta tell you, even back before vinyl was invented, and the computer to cut the vinyl was invented, because I don't think a lot of people don't understand those two things happened years apart.

Yeah. Vinyl Vinyl had already been invented probably thirty years before the computer was invented Uh-huh. To cut the vinyl. But, one thing I realized is there's always been crappy signs. Yeah.

And, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter how early on, people have always painted crappy signs, and some people have painted good signs. So Well, that that that always makes me cringe when I see, you know, some of the new people jumping on board, and they're they're copying a style from some old photo or something, and it's like, but that was bad back then. Yeah. That just wasn't executed right. Yeah.

Yeah. And and we I see that. That's that's always been common. It will always be common. There's always people that, I don't in any trade that shouldn't be doing what they do, but they but they find a way to get paid to do it, or they love it.

Damn. So that's yeah. Yeah. And we have a there's kind of an interesting thing that just happened in the city up from us, Carlsbad, California. They just put up one of those, those big marquee signs that go across this over the street.

Okay. You know, it says Carlsbad, California, or no, it just says Carlsbad. It's, you know, it's the classic, you know, the the big letters that span over the street when you come into town. And the layout on it is absolutely horrible. It's it's one of the worst layouts I've ever seen.

Uh-huh. And I cringe every time I drive by it, and, I found out the other day that the image that they used to recreate the sign was from a original sign that was there, but that original sign was had a real the same exact horrible layout Uh-huh. From from who knows, what, fifty, sixty years ago. So they're repeating the problem. Repeating the problem, and and I that's always gonna be the issue with anything, is that you're going to see people that are doing things that have really great intentions, and you got to, you know, I have to admire some of these people that are getting into sign painting now, sign making, let's say, that they have all the best intentions, and, but their designs are bad, and the layouts are bad, and their technical ability is bad, and so that's the downside, but that's always gonna be the case.

Yeah. And, I'm not I'm guilty. I look at some of my early stuff and go, Man, I don't know what that was That looked pretty weak, but, I try. Maybe I don't do the greatest job still, but I I try to do the best job I can. You're you're being humble.

Yeah. You you are you are the most precise Well, my thing my thing is I don't person I've ever observed working. Yeah. Well, my thing is I don't I'm not a great designer, so I I am I consider myself a facilitator that my specialty is taking your logo, your artwork, and saying, okay, we can add these things to make that even better. That's how I that's where I shine.

Yeah. It's not it's not in design, because if I look at the designs that I've done over the over the the years, they're okay. They're, you know, I mean, some of them are okay, some are some of them are are weak, but I'm not one of those guys that does, like, I see people that will do five, six, seven, eight, quick sketches for a client and and, you know, they pick the one they want. Right. And that that's not I don't work like that.

I'll I'll do And and most of those you could frame and put on the wall. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I I I don't have the that ability either to just sketch it out on the fly that Yeah. Yeah.

I'll do one I'll do one layout for somebody, and send it to them and see how that flies. Mhmm. And then maybe tweak it at that point, but it so that's not my that's not my big thing. But, I like to take things that already exist that people have and make them, you know, at least the same or and that's part of sign painting too, you know, is that that you a lot of times, you're not given the ability to change anything. This is the logo.

I mean, imagine trying to have Coca Cola get a hold of you and go, oh, you know, I could really make this look a lot better. Mhmm. If I but you're not allowed to do that. So you're within some constraint, you know, that's what you paint, and you do a good job at that, and and it looks tight because you know how to, you know, use the tools. So Well, you the the few chances I've had to be able to see you actually work out.

It's pretty amazing. Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah. So let let's talk music.

What, if if you're working in your studio today, what are you listening to? I actually started when we were when you were conceiving this whole thing. I'm gonna I I should have been more prepared here. Yeah. I had has no place.

I actually had, because I'm kind of a neophyte with music. Mhmm. I I really have to admit, I don't really, I don't really, have a big list. I have my iTunes that is loaded with, all kinds of cool stuff, And, so I just turn it on, I let it run. So I like, like, what?

Give us an example of of what cool stuff is. Well, let me just, see if I have because I started this you guys, I after listening to all these different interviews, I was like, oh man, I gotta start putting my list together of, all the cool stuff I listen to so I can look cool, I can sound cool, like all the rest of you guys. But, so I have been a, I have always been a neophyte with music. I've I am really lazy about it. So what I it's been really actually cool with all these young people coming down to the studio and hanging out.

One thing I require a couple things I require is they turn off their cell phones Mhmm. And the other one is that they download their music onto my, iTunes. So you're building a huge archive. That's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's that's been really cool. So, and I have, the other thing I don't do very well is I don't have good recall for names when when asked, so I'm going to have to look at my list here to see, who I might, listen to. So, but let me go back to when I was really young, I think it was in high school, early in high school, my brother was a musician, and he loved the Beatles.

I mean, that was like, it couldn't, it didn't get any better than that. And, but I kind of rejected that, and I liked, like Creedence Clear Water Revival, and I liked Jimi Hendrix, and I liked John Mayall, and as soon as I could get, I think I had a eight track car stereo player that I had somehow hooked up to play in my room, I had I had three cassettes. I had John Mayall room to move, I had Jimi Hendrix Experience, Jimi Hendrix, yeah, the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and I had, one other tape, and then when I finally got a friends that had a car, we would always play those those same ones. We would always play before we would go surfing. In the morning, we'd wanna get all jacked up because we didn't have Red Bull back then.

We would play, John Mayall Room to Move. And that was an amazing, amazing song. I remember in high school, we had an audiovisual class where we would be the guys that would run the projectors and things like that. We had, there was three albums in there, and one was, Cat Stevens, T for the Tillerman. And, I can't remember the other guy.

We'd play those records till we wore them out. So we didn't really have a huge scope, never liked, never liked heavy metal, and I'm not super crazy about rap, but once in a while I like, like, was it Black Eyed Peas? Mhmm. I like them. I a couple things I really like is, my wife plays the accordion, so I've gotten into accordion music, and, one of those guys is, Alejandro Escovido.

Yep. He's a Texas guy, ain't he? Well, I think he was. I think he's passed away. Mhmm.

If I'm not mistaken. I like, Ry Cooder is one of my favorite guys. Yeah. And through him, I've learned, Ali Fakhar, who's passed away. He's a, Egyptian or Ethiopian or some some, African guy.

Really? I love that guy. Allman, I am looking at my list here, because I can't remember. Allman Brothers, anything by the Allman Brothers, Arcade Fire, the Evatt Brothers Mhmm. Are amazing people.

And, let me go down here. See, I like Now I got my list, I don't have to remember anybody. Bob Dylan, early Bob Dylan is great. Somebody gave me a Bill Withers album that I have on here that's totally cool. There's another band.

There's a big trend, I don't know if it's the way out where you're at, but there's a lot of home concerts. People have, they have a nice house or something, they'll have a concert in their house. Oh, yeah. They've been doing that in Denton. Yeah.

So we go to those. I used to have a lot of those here in my studio, which was pretty amazing, because the sound is phenomenal. We had one group called the Bill Hilly Band, that was really cool. Of course, Bob Marley is great. Bonnie Raitt, Brian Eno.

I'm a, I've been a fan of Brian Eno's for for decades. Yeah. That's that's some cerebral stuff right there. It is. And I actually was into, when art happenings were were big when I was in college.

We actually had art happening in my studio that, we had a Brian Eno song playing on a loop that went on for hours and hours, and that was, that was pretty cool. And, you know, the typical classic Bruce Springsteen, and, the commitments were good in the movie, the commitments, I think that was where the soundtrack, that was a that's a a great album. So you've got pretty diverse taste. I well, I do, but it isn't necessarily from me, it's from all these other people that put stuff on my my, again, on my iTunes. One guy that I I have actually met in person and followed for years is Dave Alvin.

Uh-huh. He's a LA, local LA singer songwriter. He's mind boggling. The guys, see him in concert is just a thing of beauty. Of course, X is, always great.

Yeah. They they they were, they were a staple when I was a teenager. Yep. Yep. And, I got the Dixie Chicks here, which is pretty groovy.

There's one song, Traveling Soldier Mhmm. That's a that's a heartbreaker to listen to, but that's really cool. And I admire them because of that whole thing that went down with, with, her making that speech about the war and all that. That was a pretty sad event, but, Elvis Costello was a big hit, always a hero, and Emmylou Harris, and, who else could I think of? Some obscure, Hot Club of San Diego.

I really love anything that's, gypsy jazz. Yeah. I do too. I really do. Yeah.

And then there's a guy from Django even to the, oh, what is that group? There's a group out of San Francisco that kinda just kept running with that whole Django vibe. It's just awesome. I I I listen to them on Pandora sometimes. There's a group in San Francisco that used to be called the Clubfoot Orchestra.

Mhmm. That was that was pretty amazing to to listen to. I can't find the the one guy that is a, gypsy jazz accordionist. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Let's see.

And, there Growing up, there were a lot of, surf movies that we had. Mhmm. It would come through. And some of those songs, from, Almost Famous, I don't know if you ever saw that movie. Years ago, yeah.

Yeah. There's a there's a few songs in that movie that are from the surf culture surf movies, that when they come on my radio, it's like, oh my god, it's like Transports you in time. Right back, yeah, right back into right back, you know, fifty years ago. So that was pretty cool. So yeah, pretty eclectic thing.

And then with these kids, I get this song like this this, these, rave not rave, but for those dance gigs that they have where they everybody takes ecstasy and they dance all night, whatever those are called. I think that's a rave. I don't know. Rave. But whatever it is.

Tuned in. I'll get those on, I'll get those on my thing, and I'm like, oh, man. What the what is that? You know? So I'll listen listen to those things for a while, and a little bit of rap comes on once in a while.

So, yeah. It's pretty it's pretty varied. Yeah. I I have a a guilty, pleasure with the Beastie Boys on rare occasion. I'll put them on here in the studio.

I you know, I know who they are. Only rap I like. Yeah. I know. I know who they are, but I, I couldn't tell you.

I couldn't tell you a song, a single song, so, I'm just looking through these other things here. Yeah, there's so many songs, there's so many people. Oh, Miles Davis, somebody put a Miles Davis album on my, couple of them on my thing, and that's amazing. Yeah. I've got I've got a huge jazz collection on my Yeah.

ITunes. Yeah. This is, Dingo. Uh-huh. It was some it was some oh, what is the guy's name?

Mitch Michael LeGrand Mhmm. And Miles Davis. Amazing album. And it's from a it's from a movie. I don't know what Yeah.

Yeah. So I've never seen the movie, but that, he's awesome. So yeah, I've got a bunch of different stuff, and and they'll be they'll a lot of times, I won't even put music on all day. Yeah. I just I just don't I don't I don't know.

Some days I put it on. It was funny, the other day I put it on and I was painting this, MDO sign, and I could hear the brush, you know, one of my favorite things is to be able to hear how to be quiet enough where you can hear the brush moving on the on the background. Uh-huh. And the the song was perfect, and the the sound was all perfect. I was like, you know, this is this is really fun to do this for a living.

So it all Worse things you could be doing with your time. That's for sure. Yeah. Exactly. So, but, yeah.

Some days I don't. I used to put, NPR on, morning edition on. Yeah. And that guy just kinda got depressed with all the bad news. Yeah.

And so I I don't do that. I don't do that anymore. So but, yeah. Well, hey, man. I I really appreciate you, taking the time to do this.

You got it. Absolutely. You got it. Awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll I'll make my way out there at some point. K. I just need to, get off my butt and do it. Yeah.

Well, I've got a trailer, so you'll feel right at home. There you go. I think we're all hippies at heart. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, and and I just wanna let you got you and, Norma Jean know that, we have a we have future plans to, open up a, a, what is it called? It's gonna be a series of gold leaf glass sign shops all over the country, and our targets is every old town in Texas. Well, bring it. Yeah.

I I what what happened? I thought you were gonna buy a building on Main Street and let me move in. I got too much. I got too much. I got I got if you had surf, that's the prob You know, that's the biggest bummer.

And we got Lake Texoma and the Red Rivers just right here. You could you could get a little inner tube. I mean, it's not the same stuff. No. It's not the same.

That's My The biggest One of the biggest, regrets I have always had is traveling around the country, all these amazing little towns that I could move into and buy these amazing buildings for cheap and live there and be cool, but then I surf. Yeah. And so so that's the one thing that ties me to where I'm at. And I, you know, I I wanna be able to make a living. So, but yeah, God, that Norma Jean's town where she's in now, man.

God, there was some all those little towns have such great old buildings. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there's I I think we're gonna see a migration, especially of creative people over the next maybe five years, especially in this part of the country to the small towns because there every it it's that whole scenario where they take this part of of a big city that's all run down and it's cheap enough to go work and create art. Right.

But then it becomes hip and now all of a sudden there's no way you could afford to function there. And so people jump around within the city. But, you know, I think that there's I and I think that's where the Internet has, provided something uniquely new is you can go like what we've done. We've we've moved to a very small isolated place. In ten years ago's context, we would be very isolated.

But we're still able to maintain all of our business relationships and do stuff like this show and everything else. And yet still live in a a really slower paced town, and Right. We're in this fabulous train station that if we were in Dallas, this I you know, I couldn't even dream of renting something like this. It would cost so much money. Right.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I I hope that I hope I don't embarrass you with this statement, but I think that your question is why I didn't buy a building in Denton is you didn't put out enough, emotional effort to say, hell yeah, let's do it, man.

I'm I probably should have. Let me sign let me sign the lease. And I tell anybody that, see, one thing I've I feel like one big success I've had is, I've always had the mentality that I was going to buy whatever I was in. Very rarely did I ever rent. And so I see those things as, like, big money making opportunities besides my sign craft.

And that's that's the thing that differentiates me from a lot of people. And I see the people that are like me that are successful, that if you can do that and you can have that mentality, and it's a it's a mentality. Yeah. You have to have the you have to have the mindset Yeah. To be able to go in and say, you know, not only do I need a place to to work and live, but I also wanna own it and make money on it.

And so with all those little towns, that's that is a huge, draw for me. Yeah. And so I would tell anyone and I'm actually working with a young guy in, San Francisco, Andrew Lawrence, who is I know him. Yeah. So he's from Chicago.

So I'm telling him, listen, Andrew. It's great. You're young. You're living in San Francisco. You're living the living the dream.

But at some point, I think that you need to go back to wherever you came from, which is the Chicago area, find a little town, and buy your own building. Yeah. Because because in thirty years, you're gonna in thirty years, you're gonna be retired. You're gonna own the building. You're gonna have be rent free.

You're gonna have a couple tenants, and you're gonna be making money on them, then you do whatever you want. So look at the bigger picture down the road and and, so that's, you know It's wise advice. It's just, for someone like me. I'm I'm not functional enough to stick to that plan. Well, you guys you you and Norma crack me up because, you guys have moved in so many times.

I've been in the same spot for twenty years. You guys have moved. Definitely nomadic, gypsy mentality, you know, for sure. Yeah. And that that gets you that I mean, that's fun.

I the place that the train station you're in is amazing. I mean but imagine finding one of those out in the middle of nowhere that you could buy for $50,000 or a $100,000 going with a couple people. Then all of a sudden, man, it's your train station. You know, you can have the train pull up anytime you want. That that sounds like death to me, but I get I get that that's the smart move.

Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it again, it's it's a it's a different it's a certain mindset. Yeah. You know? And whatever makes you the bottom line is whatever makes you happy, that's the most important thing.

It is Yeah. And and that I think I finally got enough years on me that I've identified that for me, it's the it's the experiences that keep me going. Right. Yeah. And, Right.

I think that's why I've I've moved throughout my whole life, you know? Yeah. Well, I think Periodically, it's because it's it's you're taking on a whole new set of experiences by doing it. Right. Well, I was very nomadic from from as soon as I got out of high school till 26.

Very nomadic. Didn't didn't really stay anywhere for longer than about six six months. Okay. Literally, that was moving that much. But once I kind of had a little ground and figured it out and and then I started then it went into a year, then went into two years, and then, you know, five years and ten and twenty.

Now I'm at now I'm at twenty two years in the same spot. Yeah. So I was very I I I was in the same boat, but I saw early on that the way to financial, freedom was to own something and have rent and have some rent coming in. Have somebody else pay your pay your bills for you. Well, we own our Airstream, so we just need to, like, rent a tent to somebody so we can offset it.

Yeah. Or could find a piece of property and and make a make a trailer park. Yes. Watch it. I I I see the snideness in your face.

Watch yourself. Oh, I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm only trying to, you know, be helpful here. So but whatever you can, you know, whatever. You know, gypsies are gypsies. They can't Yeah.

They can't they can't live in one spot too long. My my parents were the same way. It's how I grew up. I don't I don't think I can approach life in any other way, really. Yeah.

I I I can relate to that. So cool, man. Alright, dude. Well, thanks a lot. It's really awesome talking to you again.

And Yeah. You got it. You got it. We'll talk again. We'll talk soon.

Okay. Cool. Okay, man. See you, man. Okay.

There we go. Roderick Treece. Thanks a lot for coming on the on the show, Roderick. It's always nice to talk to you and get caught up and get your perspective on things. And, I'm glad we were able to do this today.

So to all of you out there listening, thanks for tuning in yet again. The audience keeps growing and, it's a nice thing. I think it's, a, it's an encouraging thing to see this many people getting enthused and interested in the craft and, working to learn about it and learn about some of these people like Roderick who've been doing a long time. And, so thanks for tuning in. Also want to thank our sponsor, Full City Rooster Coffee, and, thank them for putting together the sign painters blend, which you can get on their website at fullcityrooster.com.

If you haven't tried it yet, give it a shot. Lots of people are giving us good feedback that they really enjoy it. And, I drink it every day here in the studio, so can't be half bad. Alright. Well, that's it for this week.

Thanks for tuning in and, talk to you guys soon. Today's episode of Coffee with a Sound Painter is brought to you by Full City Rooster Coffee Roasters in Dallas, Texas, roasting distinctive coffees from around the world. Sean drinks Full City Rooster coffee every day in the studio. You can order their coffee online at fullcityrooster.com. Thanks for listening to Coffee with the Signpainter, hosted by Sean Starr.

You can find all sorts of info about the show and sign painting, including previous episodes at our website, seanstarr.com.