Grudge Match?!? Old School vs. New School Sign Painters

Sean tackles the topic of whether old school sign painters don't like the newcomers to the trade, or if its just a social disconnect.

Transcription:

Coming Coming to you from Starr Studios in Denison, Texas, this is Coffee with a Signpainter, a weekly podcast hosted by sign painter, Sean Starr, that consists of interviews with other sign painters and some of the customers and characters Sean comes across while running his studio. Today's episode, we are going to talk about the perceived or perhaps real tension between the old school and the new school within sign painting, which I think probably transcends those boundaries. I think it's probably something that's, part of a a larger issue perhaps about, just, you know, every generation not connecting with the next generation and perceived injustices. I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about half the time.

At any rate, we're gonna, address this through a listener's question. Someone named Sean Denneher recorded a question on the website, which you can do too at seanstar dot com, and we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna dig into that a little bit and give you at least my perspective. I kinda feel like I have a, kind of a unique position in the timing of things. I came into this type of work just prior to computers taking over and vinyl, just prior to the Internet becoming what it is.

So I've been on both sides of the fence. I've seen, you know, what things were like prior to those changes and obviously after, and, so I kinda feel like I'm in the middle to a certain degree on some of these issues between, some of the older guys and some of the newer guys, and gals. So, yeah, let's just, let's just get into it. We're gonna we're gonna play Sean's question, and then I'm gonna jump in and run my mouth, and we'll see where it goes. Hey, Sean.

I've been following a thread in the sign painting support group on Facebook. Well, a bunch of threads. And one of the things that I've noticed is this tension between, like, old school and new school. So maybe, self taught new school people, and those who learned, back when sign painting was, booming, in apprenticeships or something like that. And I've chalked it up, I think, to a difference in philosophy.

What do you make of that tension? And what do you hope, could come of it? How, how could old school and new school work together, and and what would be the best outcome? I really wanna thank you, Sean, for raising this question. I think it's a important dialogue to have.

Before I really dig into it, I I do wanna say, because I I think it's misunderstood a lot, that myself and many others that I've talked to, some of most of which are in the old guard category, we wholeheartedly welcome anyone who wants to come into the craft and and learn it and be a part of it and and has the enthusiasm for it. You know, I I don't know of anyone that, would discourage that. And I think what's happened is is along the lines with your question is there is a difference in philosophy, but I think it goes much further than just, the realm of sign painting. I think it's it's just a kind of a crossroads, that we're at in in society as a whole. And I think a lot of it's just fueled by, you know, changes that have come about culturally with the Internet and just different shifts.

And I I think what it is, given this question some thought earlier, the work ethic that, most of us were raised with by either our parents or guys we went to work for when we were younger, is just very, very different than what we see now. And I'm not even going to opine on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing and one's right or right and the other's wrong. It's just it is very, very different. Two different philosophies indeed. You know, to to give you an example of, my own experience, my dad who is who I learned, he was the gateway into this world for me.

You know, the guy was, he's you came from Ukrainian immigrants and was a Golden Gloves boxer in his younger days, and he was a tough guy. And he was, you know, he his work ethic was insane. You know, he he could outwork anybody, that that, we were we got involved with. It's just, you know, it's a totally different generation. And a lot of the, I think, guys that either were pre computer or, you know, went through that transition, were that way.

And when they were training the next generation of sign painters, you know, they were tough on us, man. You know, we had to, you know, I talk about this a lot. You know, we had to sweep the floors. You know, that that's not a joke. That's literal.

We had to do all the grunt work for several years before we were ever allowed to touch any kind of paint or or approach any kind of design or anything else. It's, but, what that did for me, and I and I've talked to some of the others that were trained in that mode or approach. What that did is it created this lifelong, not only worth work ethic, but just, I I think a a healthy appreciation for the craft in general because we had to work for it. It wasn't it wasn't something you could just walk into and do. That being said, it's it's not that I feel that the, the new guard as it were is doing anything wrong, but I think those of us who have been doing it a while, you know, we're we're trying to do something on your behalf, those of you that are either interested in or are doing it.

And that is, you know, you've got to I I think what it's it's a a good analogy is if you wanted to go to the top of, you know, Mount Rainier up in Seattle, let's say, and you wanted to hike up there, and you had an experienced friend, that that did it multiple times and you asked him, hey. Can you can you help me do this? You know, he's gonna be a little tough on you because he he's gonna know that, you know, two thirds of the way up, you're gonna be miserable. You're gonna be wanting to throw in the towel, and and if he's too soft on you with getting trained and ready for whatever that entails, I've never done it, but, you know, you're not gonna make it. So I I guess what I'm trying to say is, when you see, what you might be perceiving as resistance or rigidness, It's all with good intention.

You know? We we've been down the path, and and we know, what challenges you you're gonna have to deal with. I mean, it it's, there's a lot of them. There aren't so many that I would say don't do it. Definitely do it.

It's worth it. But, but it's hard because you're you're gonna take on not only the challenges of learning this craft that is so intensive and so endless in the different things that you could explore and try to learn and try to get good at, but you you take on yourself as well. And what I mean by that is there is something about creating art and sharing it publicly that is excruciating. Whatever insecurities you have that you carry around on a daily basis, they're going to surface as you do this. And, it's it's tough stuff.

I mean, I I I really kinda got smacked in the face with this recently, by starting this podcast because I I've been a little bit spoiled, you know, and and especially in recent years, you know, we've gotten a lot of exposure for the work and, you know, that's felt really good. You feel kinda like you're settled into a little bit of an an a niche where, okay, I kind of fit now maybe just a little. And starting this podcast, it kind of brought all that back of, like, holy cow, you know, this is I'm putting myself out there buck naked and, you know, people might hate it and people might retaliate against my ideas and, you know, all these insecurities resurface and it kinda kind of brought up some of this stuff for me that I've kind of been able to shelf for a few years now. But that leads to, I guess, if if, if you want advice on that, I mean, I can only tell you what my own experience has been. But you you've got to find a way to find the off switch in your head, to those insecurities even just in the very shortest term at the beginning.

Because you will shut yourself down by by worrying about your work and worrying about whether it's good enough and whether, you know, the old codgers accept you. You you gotta shut that all off and just go for it. You know, I, this is about ten years ago now in San when when I had gotten to San Francisco and gotten Star Studios launched, the couple of years were kinda clunky and kinda just sorting things out, and I'd gone through an ugly divorce and was trying to just figure my own self out, let alone a business. But one of the things I did and, you know, I I knew this was a necessity is, I I was staying in this little mother-in-law apartment in my brother's garage in the Mission District, and it was tiny. But what I did is, I started painting things on the walls in the garage.

I painted a quote unquote storefront window on the back door window, that led to the backyard, and I just created a bunch of fictitious projects, because I knew, one, I had to prove to myself again that this is something I could do and could offer to the world, and two is this is this is a 100% visual enterprise. People have to see that you can do it. Not only see what you can do, but they have to see that you can do it and that's something that I I I've told quite a few, newcomers is, you know, you've got to show people something. You've got to show them that you can do it. So that's that's what I did.

I painted stuff on the garage walls and took very craftily angled angled pictures, so that you couldn't tell it was my brother's garage. And I I posted those up on our website and, printed some up and would go in and talk to people. And, you know, the the important thing was that that that overrode my insecurities that I had at that point because even though I even at that point had been doing this kind of work for at that point over fifteen years, there was all these insecurities, you know. I had all my my personal life was a mess and, you know, my head was a mess and I had come out of a several years of dealing with severe depression and anxiety and, I needed something. I needed something that I could put out there and feel good about and feel confident about.

And, so in that sense, you know, sign painting was something far more, to me than just, you know, what I do or a craft or or paying the bills. It was something much more holistic in my life of representational of something that I needed. And I think there's a lot of you out there like that that, you know, when you're, trying to explore this, you know, I I don't know. My instincts tell me that there's a lot of you listening out there that are, kind of in the same boat. You're trying to you're trying to identify, like, where you go from here in life in general.

And, you know, sign painting is a great thing for that because it's it's full expression. You know, you get to you get to interact with a lot of really neat people. You get to learn and experiment and express and it's a great thing. So all of that, I guess, leading back to Sean's original question, when you do, hear some of the things that you probably hear or you have your own insecurities, so you're hearing it within yourself, we want you here. We want you to be part of it.

We want you to explore it and learn it and carry it on and keep it alive. But, I don't think there's any way around it. I think the majority of people who've been in this for a while are not gonna be easy on you. And not that they're gonna be disrespectful or rude, but, you have a long road ahead of you in learning and experimenting and fighting insecurities, but keep with it. Stick with it.

It it it it is worth it. It is good. It's worthwhile, and it does get easier. You'll you'll get a handle on some things. You'll you'll you'll learn some things that'll surprise you about yourself and about your abilities.

But, you know, also to be lighthearted about it, you know. I mean, even in some of the interviews I've already conducted, you know, we we poke around about it and we razz, you know, the the the hipster movement and, you know, some other things. We're just having good fun. It's not a big deal. You know, what what the main thing I mean, just even the effort in in making these podcasts is, you know, this is a very, very, small arena.

And, I I can tell you from conversations with many, many, many other sign painters, over the last, especially several years, you know, we're we're all committed to doing whatever we can to, to keep it going and to keep younger people interested in in coming on board and, adding to the ranks. So all of that being said, you know, here, I'll give you guys a little pep talk. You know, continue to move forward, continue to practice, but most importantly, get yourself out there. Paint everything you can paint. It doesn't matter if it's your side of your uncle's barn or, you know, a friend has a coffee shop, you know.

You know, get out there and start painting and, stop worrying about the brushes or, you know, I I get a lot of emails and, you know, I I apologize to those who've emailed and I haven't gotten back to. It's we're also trying to, you know, run the business and everything, and sometimes I get swamped and I can't reply. But, I get questions all the time about things like brushes. There's no magic brush. I I got I was told this years ago and, I I myself, I, you know, I I've asked the brush question, you know, you you work alongside some old timer and they're just doing something spectacular, and you're like, wow.

What kind of brush is that? And I had a guy tell me years ago, he said, it has nothing to do with the brushes. A good sign painter could use a toothbrush and do the letter correctly, which exaggeration, however, it makes a good point, which is don't don't obsess on the semantics of what's the best brush, what's the best, you know, this or that or whatever. It's, there are different things that work better in different situations. But in general, those those things you'll you'll find over time, and those are preferences.

There there is no ideal brush. There's no ideal way of of really doing anything. Every sign painter I've known has their own different way of doing just about everything. There's a few common things that everybody does because no one's figured out a better way to do it, but in general, if you go into any different shop or studio and observe what they're doing, you're gonna see it done differently than the previous shop or studio you were in. And I think that's a powerful thing to understand is that you may find things that work for you consistently, that, give you better results, that give you, better looking sign or lettering or whatever.

Embrace it, make it part of your normal routine. You know, there there is no there is no set of standards or rules for this other than create great signs. So, there you go. That's that's my pep talk. You know?

Don't, don't get hung up on the little stuff. Get out there and do it. Get some get some work out there, you know, out in public where people can interact with it and see it. Turn off that switch in your head. I still to this day, when I'm when I'm done with a job, I have to you know, I'll take my photos for the portfolio if it's something I wanna put in the portfolio, and I'm done, man.

I will not look at it again because I know that if I stand there and look at it, I'm gonna start picking it apart, and I'm gonna say, I should have really I should have done that different. I should have, you know, changed my drop shadow a little on that letter, you know, and on and on and on. You're gonna drive yourself crazy if you don't find the off switch. So, you know, I'm I'm gonna try in future episodes, to, you know, address some of this stuff. There are some common questions.

Sean's question is actually very, typical. I've heard it quite a few times, and, you know, there there's some other questions that we have dealt with repeatedly, and I'm gonna try and answer those. And if you have questions, you know, please, go on the website, seanstar.com, and record a question. And, we'll go ahead and get it in the mix, and we'll try to get it answered because I'm sure there's probably plenty others that have the same questions that you do. So that's it.

That's our our episode for today. I really would like to thank everybody for the support we've had already. It it's been it's been really exciting to see this embraced, so widely. We've got listeners from all over the world already, and, iTunes has, done us a solid and put us in some of the new and noteworthy categories and what's hot categories and that kind of thing. And so, yeah, we're having a lot of fun with it.

And if you like the show and you'd like us to keep going, you know, feel free to go on the website and, you know, kick in a little bit of something as a donation. If not, that's cool too. We're gonna keep doing it either way. And we'll see you next week. Have a good one.

Today's episode of Coffee with a SignPainter is brought to you by Full City Rooster Coffee Roasters in Dallas, Texas, roasting distinctive coffees from around the world. Sean drinks Full City Rooster coffee every day in the studio. You can order their coffee online at full city rooster dot com. Thanks for listening to Coffee with a Signpainter, hosted by Shawn Starr. You can find all sorts of info about the show and sign painting, including previous episodes at our website, seanstarr.com.